170d11 Kupplung - To do or Not to do before travelling?

[Peterdenmark]

Hi everyone!

There are many discussions about clutches and quite a few about them failing.

I have three questions in this regard:

1. My clutch seems ok and it has never slipped (I have only owned the truck for the last 2500km, the total milage is 35000km). Should I change it as a precaution if I plan on going to africa or another "remote" place, or should I perhaps bring a spare clutch with me so that I can fix it once it starts slipping (or perhaps never)?

2. Should all parts of the clutch always be replaced? Scheibe + druckplatte + lager? Or do you only replace the druckplatte if it is defect somehow?

Needless to say I will bring/change all seals that are located in clutch area when I have it taken apart.

3. I have a 170d11 without a kipp fahrhaus, so it is a bit more difficult to pull the gearbox away. I have been quoted 1300 euros for the job at a workshop EXCLUDING the parts. Is this a fair price for the job?

I have found the parts on www.autoteiledirekt.de/ using webcat-services.zf.com/ to identify the vehicle.

Lager: 1863 600 125
Scheibe: 1878 001 074
Druckplatte: 1881 039 532

total price: 700 euros

All parts are Sachs.

So a price of 2000 euros for a clutch job excluding oil and seals... Ouch

But then again, it is always expensive to have a mistress

Best regards Peter

[Hatzlibutzli]

Hello Peter,

I try to give you the advocatus diaboli: what about the pistons, just heard of someone bought a 170er @ Munich an didn`t make it to Nuremberg due to a broken piston perforating the enginecase ....

what I want to say: you have a 30 year old truck with low mileage ... there may be failure of all rubberparts like hoses and seals gone hard over the years -> that is something to consider changing in advance
change all fluids according to manual
change the V-Belts, keep the old ones for spare
have a look at all the braking cylinders and hoses and consider changing them to new ones
Change all the hoses in the air system and consider to pack repairkits for the "Vierkreisschutzventil" and the air pressure controler
Take the shaft seals of the transfercase outlets, front half shafts (cheap) and maybe one Stemco seal for the rear hub (expensive, but hard to get abroad)
Have a close look at your front half shafts pivots ... grease them cautiously by removing one of the screws and repeatedly adding a small amount of grease (fill the screw hole)

but a clutch fails due to
- high mileage esp. pulling trailers
- bad abuse in recovery situations
- wrong adjustment and therefore slipping

My Advice:
Give the car a bit more time to show you its weak spots ... if you have managed the first 8000 km, you start to trust ;-)))
If the clutch fails somewhere in west africa it is most probably an easy fix even for a bush workshop to rivet new pads on the clutch disk, that last to cape town ;-)))

Greets ... Simon

[Peterdenmark]

Hi Simon

Very usefull information indeed!

I was quite focused on the clutch because I had hear so many horrorstories about failing clutches :-)

But you are right of course.

Vierkreisschutzventil. Any help on a number for the repairkit?

Stemco seal for the rear hub? Where exactly is this located?

Front halfshafts. Do you have the numbers for the seals?

My front half shafts pivots have two greasepoints each already. I can see that this is not always the case: http://www.allrad-lkw-gemeinschaft.de/p ... 31&t=54232

Does that mean that they have been changed already or that they are original? I don't have to do the "screw-and-grease-thing" with these half shafts right? Mine look like the one on the left http://www.dieseltreter.de/imag/images/ ... 1_2175.JPG

Thanks for your time! I have no one to discuss these topics with at home, so I appreciate it alot!

Best reagards Peter

[Freddy]

If you're clutch should break (what i don't exect) in africa you will have it repaired much cheaper than here.

If you're clutch breaks in african nomansland (what i don't exect) then you should only be prepared to pull the tranny there.

What you need therefore is the propper tools for all screws and fittings, a couple of heavyload truck ropes like this:
https://www.google.de/search?q=lkw+span ... w+zurrgurt

,shovel/axe to move the ground under the truck

,some wooden blocks and square timber

, you're head

,some time

Enjoy!

Freddy

[Peterdenmark]

I clearly worry too much Freddy. Thank you for the advice

[sico]

high Peter,
i was owner of a Magirus 170d11 from 1975 in 2002 till 2012.
Within these 10years i had to change all the already listed gaskets at motor, gear-box+vtg, the friction disc of the clutch, both zylinders of the clutch, gakets and bearings in the steering-gearbox, the stemco-gaskets in the rear-axle.
The whole hydraulic-brake-system (all wheel-zylinders and the central-zylinder) had to be revisioned.
I did all this work alone by myself. So i know eatch screw of a 170 er Magirus with its nickname.

I think, you are at the beginning of a long period of work.
you can choose:
do it before start of the world-trip
or
consider every night , where to get parts from and where to find a good workshop für repair "on the road".

Part-number of the stemco-rings follows later.
regards
Sico

[Peterdenmark]

I am all ears for the experience that you guys have!

I am replacing all seals that are leaking before leaving and I will bringe the ones that are not leaking. I will surely replace/renovate/bring the brake cylinders and also main brake cylinder.

My master clutch zylinder is leaking so I am replacing that (new one cost only 40 euro from truck-hamburg) and I think I will replace the slave as well and have the old one as a spare.

And perhaps or perhaps not bring a clutch disk? An original disk is "only" 300 euro and it seems that it is not necessary to replace the druckplatte or the lager, Or?

Best regards Peter

[Svalbard]

Druckplatte and Lager can be checked by someone who has had maintenance work experience with trucks from that era of 70s and 80s. In most cases they are still fine when they had low mileage.
The 30 year old disk even if it looks unworn, has become hard and 'verglast' (plain and smooth like window glass). That will sooner or later lead to clutch sliding when it comes under strain /Belastung.
I changed it in my Mercedes NG, ( just 260,- Euro for the disk from LUK) and now I 'am on the safe side.

[Svalbard]

Hier mal ein Bild meiner alten Kupplung vom 1017.
Wer sie möchte 30,- Euro. Das ist der Pfandpreis , wenn ich sie an den Verkäufer der neuen Scheibe zurück gebe. Ist wie bei Autobatterien.
Beläge gut, rutschte unter normalen Bedingungen nicht, aber war mir echt nicht zuverlässig genug, weil alt und glatt an einigen Stellen. Natürlich noch nicht asbestfrei, von 1980.

[sharkrider]

Hi Peter,

I don´t know how the 170 Gearbox look like. At the DAF there is a vent hole (red arrow). There you can have a look to the clutch - maybe you have to turn the Motor a little bit - use torch to see something.

There are also two inspection covers (blue arrows) you can open.

The Screw (green arrow) is for closing the hole before wading.

[sico]

hallo Peter,
there is no possibility to control the condition of the friction disc in the clutch from extern whithout dismounting the gearbox and the "Druckplatte".
The friction disc is completly capsuled between flywheel and Druckplatte. invisible from outside and good protected against oil-leakage.

Die friction-material on the disc may break, caused by the age of the material, though the milage is still low.
I repeat my advise from above:
Change all the parts bevore start of the world trip or repair-action every 1000 km on the road. Every day brings a new surprise.

regards
Sico

[Svalbard]

@sico
Klar kannste auch die ganze Kupplung tauschen.Sicher ist sicher.
Aber das kostet nun wirklich haarsträubend viel und die Federn der Andruckplatte , Ausrücker etc. kann man nun wirklich überprüfen oder überprüfen lassen. Man merkt auch schon beim Kupplung treten vor dem Ausbau, ob der Automat /Andruckplatte schwergängig ist.
Nachdem ich es nun selber vor kurzem gemacht habe tendiere ich dazu nur die Scheibe zu tauschen, wenn der Rest gut aussieht.

[Ulf H]

... solange die Kupplung unauffällig ihren Dienst tut sehe ich keine Veranlasung da dran zu gehen ...

Gruss Ulf

[Svalbard]

Im Prinzip ja.
Wenn Du allerdings durch die Berge ackerst, eigentlich urlauben willst und die K. fängt ausgerechnet bei den heftigen Steigungen dort das Stinken an...
Ging mir Flachländer genau so in den italienischen Alpen.

[sico]

hallo Svalbard,
ich glaube, du hast meine Botschaft nicht richtig verstanden.
Natürlich kann man eine Kupplung tauschen. Dabei stellt sich die Frage, ob es alle beteiligten Bauteile sein müssen, oder genügt es, die Reibscheibe allein zu wechseln?
Meisst genügt es, die Reibscheibe zu erneuern.

Die Frage war aber, ob man von außen irgendwo reinschauen kann, um so die einzelnen Elemente der Kupplung, hier speziell die Reibscheibe, zu kontrollieren.
Dazu meine Aussage:
Man kann eben nicht reinschauen.
Den Zustand der einzelnen Elemente sieht man erst nach kompletter Demontage der Kupplung.

mfg
Sico

[Ulf H]

... ich mag mich an 4 selbst erlebte Kupplungsschäden erinnern ...

... 2 kamen plötzlich und waren total, die Beläge waren jeweils noch sehr gut, bei einer Kontrolle wäre also genau diese Scheibe wieder als gut verbaut worden ...

... die beiden anderen kamen schleichend und wurden immer schlimmer ... im Zweifelsfalle hätte ich es damit aber bei einem normalen Urlaub noch bis heim geschafft ...

... in jedem Falle wurde nur die Mitnehmerscheibe getauscht, auch wenn Druckplatte und Automat teilweise angegriffen waren ... diese abgenutzten Teile haben in der Folge nie einen Schden verursacht ...

Gruss Ulf

[Svalbard]

sico und Ulf, ich sehe das auch so. in der Regel reicht es die uralte Scheibe zu wechseln.
Ansonsten laufen einem auch die Kosten davon.
Ich hab das nur betont weil sico schrieb ''I repeat my advise from above:
Change all the parts bevore start of the world trip or repair-action every 1000 km on the road.''

Also, wir sind uns einig, Scheibe reicht in der Regel.
<benzmeister sagt natürlich was anderes, also alles muss raus. Sagt er , weil er es nicht anders kennt.
Bei <mercedes tauscht man nicht nur die Scheiben, die kennen nur schwarz/weiss, kalt/heiss, hell/dunkel

Da liegt man dann mal eben bei 1500 bis 2000 euro für ne ganze Kupplung ohne Einbau.
Das ist es natürlich nicht wert, jedenfalls mir nicht.

[Hatzlibutzli]

Vierkreisschutzventil. Any help on a number for the repairkit?

Sorry, I own the predecessor of your car, which has a less sophisticated brake system ... usually it is a Wabco Part with a part number on it, by which you get the repair kit

Stemco seal for the rear hub? Where exactly is this located?

located between the hub and the axle housing ... as far as I know there are two different sizes. which one your is you will not find out until you disassemble it ;-)))

Front halfshafts. Do you have the numbers for the seals?

picture story with numbers by the 170er-Guru Felix: http://www.hehlhans.de/Doppelgelenkwelle%202.htm

My front half shafts pivots have two greasepoints each already. I can see that this is not always the case:
Does that mean that they have been changed already or that they are original? I don't have to do the "screw-and-grease-thing" with these half shafts right? Mine look like the one on the left

those are the good ones, as long the are greased every 2500km they last!!! Most probably not the original ones anymore!

again my 5 cents to the clutch theme:
My car turns 50 next year ... I put 40 000 km on it the last 6 years (and 30 000km on its predecessor, still working) ... an I would not spend a thought about the clutch, when I had to drive to Capetown tomorrow .... you have a 11 ton lorry, constructed to tow trailers in construction site settings ...

Invest in rubber ;-))))

One final thing I remember: with the double/triple cab 170er is the front suspension: when the leaf spring weakens, some people broke the oil pan by impact of the front differential .... 6cm lift of the suspension solves this problem

Greets ... Simon

[Peterdenmark]

Hi everyone.

I really appreciate the discussion about the clutch. It is good to get some opinions on the matter so that I can make an informed decision

@ Simon Thank you for the advice! I will surely note all these things. 6 cm suspension lift is quite a rise. Would require new brackets, but I guess those are pretty standart. Good to know about the 2500km grease interval. I hope they are not ruined by the former owners.

Best regards Peter

[sico]

@ Svakbard,
Peter hat ja mehrere Threads laufen, bei denen es immer um den Austausch von Teilen geht.
Mein Hinweis auf "Change all Parts" bezog sich auf das gesamt Fahrzeug.
Ich hatte nach ca 1000 km erster Testfahrt auf der zweiten Reise in Kappadokien einen defekten Wellendichtring an der Kurbelwelle zur Kupplung. War ein Dichtring ähnlich einem Packungsring. Völliger Schrott das Teil. 3-4 lit Ölverlust pro Tag. Eine Werkstatt in Aksaray hat den WDR dann erneuert. Dieser war aber schon so überlagert, dass ich 2 Jahre später nochmals diesen WDR tauschen mußte.
Bei so einer Aktion kann man ohne großen Mehraufwand die Reibscheibe der Kupplung sowie die Wellendichtringe am Getriebeeingang erneuern. Zu Hause ist das Besorgen der notwendigen Teile kein Problem. Unterwegs sieht das anders aus. Da muß man meist mit einer gebastelten Lösung zufrieden sein, die wiederum nicht lange hält.
Nach meiner Erfahrung ist ein 25 Jahre altes Auto mit wenig Kilometerleistung zunächst dicht. Sobald man aber anfängt zu fahren und die ersten Reisen unternimmt, beginnt der Spaß.
Leckagen an allen gummielastischen Elementen. Dies hört erst auf, nachdem man alle in diesen Beiträgen genannten Elemente erneuert hat.

Natürlich kann sich jeder aussuchen, ob man auf Reisen praktisch jeden Tag auf Kohlen sitzend den nächsten Defekt erwartet und dann nach einer Reparaturmöglichkeit suchen muß.
Mein Geschmack ist das nicht. Ich bereite meine Autos so vor, dass ich auf Reisen nicht schrauben muß.
mfg
Sico

[Svalbard]

Peter, can you Google- translate the latest discussion ?

Otherwise claim some translation, I will do it.
Please understand that we use to cling to habits, like talking german language when it starts to become interesting

[Peterdenmark]

@Svalbard - Yes I get most of the points. I can read and understand some german as it is close to Danish and google translate does the rest - or creates total confusion

It's a german forum so no need to excuse the language

I think that Sico has a good point about changing all the parts that will bother you on the road. But I can also understand your point about taking it more relaxed.

In the end it comes down to your personal style of travelling.

I think I will do most of it before we go and bring parts for the rest.


Speaking of parts, does anyone have the partnumber for the bearing with two gewinde and nuts that is connected to a "u-shaped" bar underneath the car? There is one "kopf" on each side and 4 in total (two front and two rear). I need two new for the front :-)

[sico]

https://mediaservices.zf.com/Redirect.d ... TX9nEO8%3D
hallo Peter,
here is a link for download an info about steering-parts for IVECO from the manufactorer zf-lemförderer.
The parts were distributed by Europarts.
mfg
Sico

[Ulf H]

... is there another foto avalable? ... as far as i can see, the requested part calls Stabilisator ...

Gruss Ulf

[Peterdenmark]

Hi! I had a look at the catalogue but this type does not seem to be standard. I will contact ZF directly if no one knows the number.