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Happy New Year 2020 - wishing all your truck-build and travel plans come through this year!

Welcome to my expedition truck build thread I wish to call Project Think Beyond Limits based on the 2002 Mercedes Benz 2002 Actros 4x4x4 chassis.

My name is Jerzy and I live in Poland. I will be working on it together with my brother and various firms based over here. This is not an open-checkbook project. Far from it.
The truck would be registered, built and have its base in Poland, unless I move somewhere else.

Whilst I am not a new forum member, in the past I was mostly a silent observer and infrequent contributor. I am under an immense impression of pairospam's Mercedes 2626 6x6 project (viewtopic.php?f=33&t=26452&hilit=2626)

I will write in English as my German is not good enough for a detailed discussion. Feel free to respond in German, I will try to translate it. Also, Google translate should be of assistance here.

The proposed use of the truck is not 100% defined. Initially it would be used locally in Poland and also for off-road driving training. My brother has a lot of experience with 4x4 cars, for me it will be all new. Perhaps it is also a project for my brother and I to commemorate my Dad who passed away few years ago. He loved big forestry trucks and taught my brother and I lots about all things mechanical.

In due time it would be converted for an expedition/overland camper truck, in so-called stealth mode so the exterior would appear to be as simple and basic as possible. You will understand the reliability is the most important part for such a project. For that reason, I decided to go middle-ground, with the truck not being too old (issue with wear and tear, and access to parts) or too new (issue with Ad-blue or sensitivity to fuel). The 4x4x4 Actros is 2002 so only Euro 3 truck.

Initially I would like to take it to Eastern Europe, Scandinavian countries, South-East Europe, Turkey, Iran, Georgia, various former soviet republics, Mongolia and Kazakhstan, Russia, definitely Siberia in the winter one day. In the future I would also travel the Silk Road (Silk Route) starting in Poland and ending somewhere in China. This, however, is only on the paper type of project at this time. Some of the countries on our way are currently unstable politically and there are also other deadly threats there. Africa is not of that much interest to me at this time. South America would be great to visit but I am aware the shipping there would be just super expensive and the truck could be just too big.

The choice of truck is a result of many considerations. Not too big, not too small, definitely not under 7.5t. The ideas ranged from ex-Bunderwehr/fire department 4x4 trucks, Steyr 12M18, MAN KAT 4x4, Saurer 6DM, through MAN/Mercedes/Saurer 6x6 offering, ending with former Dakar support truck Mercedes Benz SK 8x8. In other words, a very wide array of options. The Herman Unterwegs truck comparison videos were also very helpful (https://herman-unterwegs.de/lkw-basisfa ... tellungen/), though it took me some time to understand given I am not fluent in German.

Around a year ago I started reading this forum extensively and noticed a number of discussions where the length, width, height and manoeuvrability were discussed. The turning circle (Wendekreis) was mentioned there few times. So, I kept on reading. Somewhere on the kat-forum the turning circle was discussed as something of a concern with relation to the 6x6 and 8x8 truck.

And one day I spotted this truck:








So that was a truck that, whilst having an acceptable wheelbase of 4500mm, had its turning circle in its full equipment setup of only 15 meters.
Perhaps Christmas came early, I thought.

Fast forward few months and here we are:










Few technical details: total length 9.50m; total potential length of the habitation box up to 7.30m (after the exhaust and air filters are relocated); space between the tyres 3.80m. It is a permanent 4x4 with 4 turning wheels. It is a quite an interesting setup. The rear axle could either stay locked (no turning), turn in opposite direction as the front wheels to make the turning circle smaller or turn in the same direction as the front wheels to travel sort of sideways. It is a very similar concept to the Toni Maurer MAN 8x8 x 8 discussed here viewtopic.php?f=17&t=76260&p=830663&hilit=8x8#p718796

There is still the task of selling now redundant airport sweeper equipment as well as the additional MB OM 501 LA engine / hydraulic two stage pump that was powering the snow brush and the blower.

The VIN number for the truck: WDB9500831K588929
Obviously, some parts would have changed after the chassis was sent to Aebi Schmidt for conversion to the CJS9 Airport Sweeper.

There will be more technical details coming in due course so that I have everything in one thread and perhaps someone makes any use of this data.

I will be asking the forum for advice, commentary, ideas. There is an unbelievable amount of knowledge here. I hope to make the best use of it.

Last but not least, I look forward to posting on the forum!

Have fun with it

Do you want to keep the drivetrain in the state 'as is' or do you plan modifications to reach a more common angle of the drive shafts?

Best
Uwe

Uwe hat geschrieben: ↑

2020-01-01 17:41:52

Have fun with it

Do you want to keep the drivetrain in the state 'as is' or do you plan modifications to reach a more common angle of the drive shafts?

Best
Uwe

As it stands, it appears it does have one gear transfer box. It seems these are low gears but this is purely my speculation. I have not been able to get any technical info from Aebi Schmidt re what changes were done to the drive train. I looked at the identification plates attached to the axles. The front and the rear axles are same and the info reads: 29:24 x 4.000 = 4.833. So far I was not able to find these plates on the transfer case. All I know it is the VG1700-3W/1,0 transfer case.

The idea is to change to transfer case to one designated as VG1700-3W/1,69, like this one:https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anz ... 2-223-7478
The transfer case would have to be lowered so that it does not pertrude above the chassis frame. As it stands right now, it is too high so the habitation box would not fit easily.

Once the sweeper superstructure is removed, I should be able to take detailed pictures and post them here. I would then be able to take precise measurements and start designing in AutoCAD Inventor, both the frame and the future habitation box.

Hello, Jerzy:

Happy new year to you too!

I am very glad to finally know what you were talking about all this time. I thought I could not be surprised by anything at this point, but you made my day with such an impressive discovery.

Really, this is going to be fun.

Glad to know, also, that you actually are not too fat to drive!

Cheers and the best of lucks.


Pairoa

Happy new year from here as well!

The drive shaft angles are beautiful, this would make it virtual impossible to touch ground with the transfer box or a shaft when in off-road visiting. I would rather try cut a hatch in the shelter floor and keep the setup as it is.

Be careful when you buy it: many air field vehicles have no official license plate. If you buy one of these the officials will treat it as an brand new vehicle. And it is not possible to get it road legal with EUR3. I don't know polish law in detail but I guess it will be similar to the German rules. So you should check if the truck had proper paperwork to get it road legal before you buy it.

All the best,
Felix

The last picture looks like the lorry is parking in the private garden. For me it means, it was bought.
May be the 4x4x4 is the only lorry, it can reach the parking place?
Nice project, I wish you much fun with it.

Indeed, it is bought.

Felix: the registration regulations seem similar between Germany and Poland. If the 4x4x4 was not registered previously, it would virtually be impossible to register it now as a used truck for the very reasons you explained in your comment. I spent a lot of time investigating the legal/paperwork situation and luckily everything required was there. The truck is now officially registered.

In terms of drive shaft angles/transfer box, this is all still up to debate. I need to remove the superstructure to see what's the actual situation. Then the decision will be made.

Lura: it is hard to say whether 4x4x4 was the only way to park the truck. In fact, I manouvered it on the parking space without using the 4 wheel steering. Luckily, the gate is relatively wide so it compensates a little for not very wide residential road.

I have no doubts there will be instances where the ability to steer 4 wheels will be essential.

Okay, when it can drive like a normal lorry, it's good. I think driving an 4*4*4 isn't easy at beginnig. The driver of XXL-Buses in Hamburg needed special education to drive the buses with computercalcuated driving cycle thru the town

Hi Jerzy,
Nottingham Sems to be impossible

All the very best with that outstanding project truck

Cheers
Thom

Welcome Jerzy,

Interesting project your truck! I think you are the first person with a steer-all-wheels-truck in this community!

I am surprised that the wheelhousing was modified. I thought that your wheelsize could be mounted on Actros without modifications, but perhaps it was necessary for the special equipement to have a certain distance from ground to chassis?

If, ocassionally, you could make a serie of photos showing the difference in turning radius with the two steering options, would be quite nice!

Have a good time with your new toy,

Greetings,

Till

Till: it feels great to be sort of a pioneer on the forum by way of having all-wheel drive all-wheel-steer truck

The reason the wheelhousing might have been modified was because of the tyre size. They are 445/95R25 or 16.00R25 (both are the same). This means that are about 148cm tall. On the truck itself, they are about 143cm tall.
The truck picture might be misleading and not truly representing how tall these tyres are. Look at the picture below, to the right. You will see Mercedes SK 4x4 and next to it Mercedes Actros 4x4.

Look at the wheel sizes. Actros has the tyres 16.00R25, SK has 16.00R20. Also, SK cabin is probably even taller given the amount of space between the tyre and the mudguard.

The other day I measured the clearence. So here it goes:
* front axle: distance between the ground and the lowest point of the axle/differential housing - 53cm
* front axle: distance between the ground and the tie-rod fixtures - 52cm
* rear axle: distance between the ground and the lowest point of the axle/differential housing - 53cm
* rear axle: distance between the ground and the tie-rod fixtures - 47cm

Since I am talking numbers, one measure I have also taken is from the ground to the bottom of the front fender - 93cm

Weather permitting I will take pictures over weekend so that I have this for documentation purposes.
I might well take pictures of the front/rear axle assemblies so that there are plenty of pictures here. Perhaps they could be of use for someone on here.

Regarding the differences in turning circle, I am waiting for snow so that I could go some empty parking lot so that I could try in a fresh snow and then measure precisely.

hi there,

a crazy project you started! super nice!
about 2 weeks ago i was looking around on the internet and found the same model that you bought! if i had the cash to play i directly would have bought it...well yours looks like it is in better condition, but if anybody wants to start a similar project, or maybe you want two of them
here is the link:

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/deta ... um=android

enjoy your project and keep showing pictures!
by the way, whats the suspension and the frame, will it allow torsion? i love driving 4x4x4...so nice....i often drive with telescopic forklifts...

greets, alex

Hi Alex,

I have seen this one as well. It has been for sale for ages. I do not know what is its registration paperwork situation. Please refer to the commentary above re issues with registering old vehicles which were not previously registered.

Also, it seems it has damaged clutch (see the ad description). If you look at the pictures, the cardan shafts are removed so whoever buys the truck, would have to get a lowrider lorry to transport it. Also, how would one have a test drive in it?
For someone with an easy access to the truck workshop it might be a good choice, though. Perhaps the clutch issues are not serious? Who knows...

PirateBretz hat geschrieben: ↑

2020-01-03 23:23:58

by the way, whats the suspension and the frame, will it allow torsion? ....

I am not sure what you mean here. Could you explain please?

tooFATtoDRIVE hat geschrieben: ↑

2020-01-03 23:40:03

PirateBretz hat geschrieben: ↑

2020-01-03 23:23:58

by the way, whats the suspension and the frame, will it allow torsion? ....

I am not sure what you mean here. Could you explain please?

when i looked at the pictures of the truck in the ad, i had the feeling it was built to drive on flat terrain and would be quite stiff.
so im interested if its steel leaf springs or parabolic springs(not sure if this is the correct english translation) or air suspension?

greets, alex

Ok, I get it now. It has parabolic springs (Parabelfedern). I looked at the frame and it has the usual C-shape normally used in regular trucks. It does not have a frame profile used on MAN KAT trucks.

I did not want to have an air suspension. I plan to travel into some extreme locations, such as Siberia in the winter or Pamir Highway or maybe other places initially planed by this Swiss couple - https://www.4-xtremes.ch/adventures/xtremes/ so that would be one extra potential problem to worry about.

Nothing wrong with air suspension, just one less thing to worry about.

thanks, that sounds nice, it will be so much fun driving this in offroad terrain!

i look forward to the detail pictures!

have fun!

alex

Ok, I would be grateful for some help here.

The Mercedes OM 50 LA V6 engine in my 4x4x4 is rated at 313hp. However, it appears that the Mercedes OM 501 LA V6 engines (Euro 2 and Euro 3) mounted in Actros MP1 trucks came with a number of different power outputs ranging from 313HP to 456HP (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_Actros). My truck seems to have the lowest power output from the below list:



I am trying to find out how do these engines differ, what are the differences in peripherals of these engines, perhaps the ECUs as well. Does anyone on here work in a Mercedes workshop to get that information? At my end I do not have a Mercedes authorised truck workshop anywhere nearby from where I could get that info.

Perhaps someone here could help?

Thanks,
Jerzy

Hello,


For engines which have been on the market for 15 or 20 years there are many plug-and-play sollutions for manipulation. Since the warrenty has expired anyway I see no big risk in putting a new or manipulated software. My experience with theese engines is only an 8-cylinder as a stationary engine in a agricultural machine, probably similar to a Euro3 truck-engine. The guy from "E87" (software-company from Northern Germany) had no problems to dig into the Software (as with some other engines) and increase the engine power from 510 hp to some 580-600hp. In daily use the result was convincing. For machines with pto he has a test bench. The company has guaranteed to reset the software back to the original if required.

At least in some cases it was not possible for other workshops to conect to the modified ECU. For use in a travel vehicle here could maybe a risk in case of engine problems, it might become more difficult to get diagnosis. But luckily the engine of my reference never had problems in the 9 years of use, so this is just theory.

About possibilities of changing the complete ECU for a stronger model I have no information, same for differences of cooling, reinforced parts etc. between the different models.


Regards,

Nils

Hi Nils, many thanks for your post. It is very helpful.

You have touched upon something I am hoping to avoid for this travel truck. Namely, I hope to keep the engine ECU/software to products that came from Mercedes factory. That is why I am keen to explore knowledge regarding the differences between various power outputs of the same engine model so that whilst the power output might be increased to 456hp, this would be achieved, I hope, using existing MB setup. Should there be technical issues during my travels, I could simply use VIN for a truck from which the engine/diesel pump/injectors/turbo were used and obtain service parts. I know, this perhaps is a more difficult way to achieve the power increase goal but let's investigate it first and see where it takes me.

I have found a Spare Parts Catalog (Ersatzteilkatalog) for the Aebi Schmidt CJS 9. Whilst is pictured fitted on the Actros MP2( or MP3), I think the architecture of the Schmidt CJS9 superstructure is the same as mounted on the Actros MP1 chassis. I hope this will help me when removing the superstructure.
Here is the link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_gMwy ... Ew7sd8DvA1 or here: http://schmidt-avtokom.ru/CJS-914%20104 ... 4121-0.pdf

In my initial post I mentioned that in the future I hope to visit Siberia in the winter. Have a read on this 2015 Siberia winter expedition: https://kat-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1970 It is a fascinating if limited narrative to some extraordinary challenge.
It was initiated and led by a Polish explorer Romuald Koperski. He has sadly passed away December 2019. May his soul rest in peace.
For those who have not seen it before, have a look at these video documentaries:




This nicely brings me to one of the aspects of this truck build - extreme thermal and sound insulation of the truck itself and also the cabin.
Let start this gently with this questions: could anyone on here could point to forum discussions/threads, on here or elsewhere, discussing a car/truck preparation to travels in extreme colds (say -50 degree Celsius). I am not sure if I ever attempt it but since this truck build is its absolute beginning state, it might well make sense to work on it too.
For those who might think it cannot be done in modern truck - well the Swiss couple from 4Xtremes https://www.4-xtremes.ch/ seems to have done it, though the temp fell to -41 degree Celsius, not -50.
For those who might think it is unlikely someone would go to Siberia during winter, look what happens you travel unprepared, or simply your luck runs out for a while:


I look forward to reading your commentary and hopefully your experience.

tooFATtoDRIVE hat geschrieben: ↑

2020-01-03 21:01:30

Look at the picture below, to the right. You will see Mercedes SK 4x4 and next to it Mercedes Actros 4x4.

Look at the wheel sizes. Actros has the tyres 16.00R25, SK has 16.00R20. Also, SK cabin is probably even taller given the amount of space between the tyre and the mudguard.

Do You collect Airport-maschines?

lura hat geschrieben: ↑

2020-01-06 15:49:38

Do You collect Airport-maschines?

I do not think so at least not yet.

So I had a chance to measure angles on my 4x4x4 truck, as it stands right now.

Here they are:
* Approach angle - 40°
* Departure angle - 33°

What do you guys think? These should be enough, right?

Little update.

Upgrading to the strongest OM501 engine version (456hp) will not be easy. From what I was able to gather, the list of items to change would be extensive: injectors, turbo, ECU, pistons (this is not strictly necessary).
I got the price estimation for this work from a workshop that rebuilds Mercedes truck engine and it not cheap. The other option was to buy a 2nd hand used OM501 in the 456hp version but this is risky for other reasons, not knowing the engine's true condition being the key one here. Alternatively, one could suggest replacing the current engine with OM502 engine but I shall park this idea for a while given it is not financially viable at this time.

Not much to note otherwise. I am currently working on the list of tools I should have, both to work on the truck (I found some good info on the Pairoa's 2626 thread) and to take with whilst travelling.

On a separate note, could those amongst us with first hand experience of switching from Michelin XZL to Continental HCS or in the opposite direction comment on the comparison between these two tyres? Whilst neither is available in the size suitable for my truck, I am trying to gather all the info on these two types of tyre threads. XZL and HCS clearly have different threads and I wonder which type would be more suitable for long term travel on hugely different surfaces (snow, ice, soft soil, gravel/stones, paved and unpaved roads to name the few).

All, few small updates:

At this time things are moving very slow. Whilst I have not been affected by the COVID-19, I have put on hold most of my the most significant planned expenses until work-related things become more stable.

In the meantime, however, I have a question to those amongst us familiar with the leaf suspension. On the truck I have a parabolic spring suspension system, 3 leaves in the front and 4 leaves in the back. As it stands, the drive is massively uncomfortable anywhere else but on a smooth tarmac surface. I could feel even the smallest potholes. Offroad speeds, as limited it has been so far, are super slow. Partially this is due to the fact, that the superstructure is mounted solidly to the chassis, i.e. it is essentially bolted. There are no springs between the mounting points on the chassis and the superstructure's frame.

The truck is rated for 20 tons and fully equipped is 18.2 tons. As it stands on the pics, without the attachments, the truck weights 14 tons. Not sure what the total weight would be but I gather a full container (with a steel scheleton), fully equipped, would probably end-up at 4 tons. I suspect that the superstructure weights approx 3 tons, maybe more. This would mean that the chassis alone would weight approx 10-11 tons. Does it sound ok?

Now, in terms of the driving comfort, my first thought was to remove a single leaf from each pack so that the front would be with two leaves and the rear would be with 3 leaves. However, I read on one of the German forums that one cannot remove a leave from the parabolic spring setup willy nilly. I do not know if that's correct or not. Hence my questions to you all: what is your view/experience with removal of spring leaves? It would be the most cost effective option and probably a good one to test if the ride comfort.

Any thoughts/recommendations on this please?

Those with similar suspension system, could you kindly count your leaves and let me know the total weight of your truck please?

Front suspension:












Rear suspension:

Rear wheel steering components:

Hello, Jerzy:

Good to hear from your project again.

I cannot see well from the pictures. Can you tell what is this piece attached to?

I will take some pics of this part.

Because this was an airport sweeper, the setup you circled in red is designed to limit the wheel movement in the up and down direction. On the runway all the attachments would be in more or less set position. The limited wheel movement would protect them should the wheel hit a hard patch of ice, jump over it and then compress hitting the tarmac.

For the offroad use this will, of course, be removed.

Okay.

Waiting for the pictures to see how that thing is and how it works, I wonder if this is one of the reasons you found the truck so stiff. Also, the 16:00R20 are big monsters and, full inflated, they tend to make the ride very rough.

What you know is true, according to my research, and you cannot modify at will a parabolic spring setup. Okay, neither a leaf spring, but it is a little less dramatic.

Looking the setup for the rear steering and the overall rear suspension it is of no surprise that the truck weights 11 tons alone. It is a quite massive steel batch.

Greetings.


Pairoa

Neither heavy steel nor 16.00r20 are a reason a truck cannot be comfortable! It's of course hard to say from only a forum post, what somebody calls uncomfortable or not.
But maybe, first try remove those vertical travel limiters before considering anything else. To me, it looks like they stop any suspension travel, and actually your 1600 tires are the only suspension you have It might be a difference of night and day.

The tires are actually even taller. These are 445/95R25 so approx 1480mm tall. The 16.00R20 tyres are 1350mm tall.

I agree that the limiters need to be removed first before I take it for a test ride. I will play with the tyre pressure too. These limiters are not present in the front, however, yet this is where you first notice how bumpy is the ride.

Should the above be not sufficient, I might have to change the parabolic springs. Luckily the length are the same front and back so if lucky, I might only need to replace the front ones (the existing ones would be fitted at the rear).

Any other suggestions?