110-17AW

[dollythelw]

Good afternoon

Firstly I must apologise for my total absence of German language skills

Ive tried searching but the combination of a lack of language and the devestating effect web translations programs have upon meanings and syntax has left me clueless.

I have an ex-BW driving school 110-17AW, 1 wife, 3 small children, a bullmastiff, a nasty habit of racing offroad cars and the usual lack of money that combination brings.. so, time has finally allowed me to make progress and now I need to make a camper that will make everyone happy...

I have just bought a "box" which is actually an ex-prisoner transport unit, its a perfect fit for the 110-17's bed, its insulated, strong and well made. Our trips to Russia (and some of the more rural bits of Eastern Europe) mean I am concious of the need to isolate the box from the chassis's torsional flex, but the truck must drive well on the road as my wife will also be driving it.

the vast majority of the trucks time will be spent on tarmac. Russian roads may count as offroading but mostly because of the car sized potholes but they are generally flat, we will be parking offroad and that will mean some offroading down the logging trails and ditch driving to get to camp.

I am really interested to hear your thoughts and advice please!

1) my current favourite idea; the "spring clamp" method that is standard on these beds, Im aware of its limitations though so I wondered if it could be made more efficient with longer springs, longer "slider guides" to relocate the bed as the chassis twists and a reduction in the number of "inflexible" fixings, I could also add a panhard rod at the front of the bed if you guys think it necessary?
Questions; what dimensions would you choose for the compression springs? how much resistance should they provide and how to decide on thier length?

2) 3 point, obviously I would need to make a new crossmember for the front of the bed, I have read of effects this system has upon the vehicles handling
Questions; Is the impact on handling on the road very noticeable? I could use a cable operated disc brake on the pivot shaft of the front link to "lock" the bed for road use - would this cure the problem?

3) Hybrid; springs and a front link (effectively providing) a panhard but it would be possible to also incorporate the disc brake - I could then reduce the need for such strong springs in the clamps?

Im a mechanical kind of guy, working metal is not a problem but Im very new to trucks!!

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and advice and thank you in advance!

Cheers

Jez

[Uwe]

Hi Jez,

I would reuse the mounting of the original bed - it's been tested and proven by the Bundeswehr

The IVECO will have a good handling on tarmac and reasonable offroad qualities. Just try it on a trip and if you think afterwards, that the mounting isn't flexible enough, you might still mount longer springs and an panhard rod.

Cheers
Uwe

[dollythelw]

Hi Uwe,

I had a bit of a testing session at the weekend




it wasnt too good until I removed these bolts, which were binding before the main springs at the front of the bed had moved at all




now things started to work properly, is this enough flex or should I aim for more? if so where do I find chassis springs????




The springs havent completely bound yet, but its close




The box section frame has been removed now, I wanted to test with the frame in place as it would mimic the rigidity of the new "box",

I will remove the wood from the original bed to save some weight, in England there is no weight category for "motorhomes" so theres no need to keep under 7.5 tonnes but every KG costs diesel!

The box body is 5.3m long, its long but is it too long?? What do you guys think?

[dollythelw]

Heres another question - how tall is too tall?

[Wilmaaa]

In Germany, maximum height is 4 metres. Depending where you want to go, I wouldn't aim for more than 3,7m or 3,8m, but it's all a question of personal preferences. Some people might say even 3,5m is too high

[dollythelw]

ahh, I think the height will come to 3.7m with a 2.1m high box on top, I was hoping to fit bigger diameter single wheels to bring 100km/h cruising RPMs lower.... hmmm is it possible to remove the intermediate chassis rails and bolt the bed to the main chassis rails to save 10cm or is it not worth the effort?

I have some snap ring wheels to fit but I dont know what size tyres to go for - any recommendations Uwe? (thanks for the help so far by the way! )

Cheers

Jez

[Uwe]

Hi Jez,

In my opinion, you might remove the intermediate chassis rails - assuming the chassis of the box is strong enough. But since most manufacturers claim such intermediate chassis rails in their mounting guidelines, it would perhaps be a thing to discuss with the MOT engineer.

What's the size of your wheels? 11-20, 10-20? Depending on that, I would choose 365/80R20 MPT or 365/85R20.

Cheers
Uwe

[dollythelw]

I will check the wheels this evening Uwe - I cant remember what the seiz is at the moment

its been a busy weekend, several obstacles have shown themselves;

The prisonerbox came, its a good size, its well made but of course the windows and doors are in the "wrong place" for me and it has some damage.

I am used to working metal and not these materials so I need advice please - the composite appears to be GRP-insulation-GRP, can I "stretch" this material by adding a strip of new material? is it possible to fill window holes in using sections of panel and fibreglass resin or would I be better off making a new box? if this is the case then maybe I can keep the lower half of this box and make a new "top half" and build a pop top/raising roof version

Insurance.... only 1 company in the UK will insure this truck, because its an import, has the steering on the European side and its over 5000cc Im left with a big expense - how is it for insurance in Europe for a truck camper? If I register it as a private LKW then I must keep the tacho and I have problems with registration because I dont have a declatration of conformity and Iveco UK cant make this paper because the 110-17 never sold here grrrrr!!!!

Cheers guys

Jez

[dollythelw]

how much does a 50mm thick box cost over there out of interest? something like 5000x2000x2300mm - Ive seen some prices that seem to be a lot of Euros!

[Wilmaaa]

how is it for insurance in Europe for a truck camper?

Depending on the age of the vehicle you can get insurance from about €150 per year.

For the question about the box, I'm not the right person to answer - though I could translate if someone wanted to say something but not in English

Also, Leute, kann/mag jemand die Frage zum Koffer beantworten? Gerne auf deutsch, die Übersetzung findet sich dann schon

[dollythelw]

€150???? €1200 in England!! Im sure there was an EU ruling about being able to get insurance from other countries...

we call this situation "rip off Britain"

[Wilmaaa]

Well, for a normal truck insurance (commercial vehicles) you can easily pay something like €1200 as well.
In 2005, when I asked my normal insurance broker about insurance for my truck, he offered the wonderful price of €1900 per year. I really liked the guy, but didn't get insurance from him

[Wilmaaa]

But it's hard to believe that there's only one insurance company you can use.
Surely there must be some classic lorries enthusiasts or even clubs where you could ask? Or is your truck not old enough to get a special offer?

[dollythelw]

hmm, my problem here is that only 1 company will do it...

Will German companies only insure German registered trucks?

[Wilmaaa]

Yes, I suppose the car needs to be registered in Germany to be insured by a German insurance.

You've probably tried all the ones listed here?
http://www.classicmachinery.net/forum/v ... =46&t=5327
(question is about insurance for Ireland, but there are some UK insurance companies mentioned)

[dollythelw]

Yes - thanks, its a bit more tricky - I will try to explain our bizarre system;

If I keep the 110 as an LKW then I must keep a tacho, I can however get "private LKW insurance" (still expensive) I am then limited to 56mph and only 2 lanes on the motorway, The truck will have to take an LKW technical exam as well.

If I register as a "motorhome" then I dont need a tacho, I can drive the same as a car with the same speed limits (yes its kind of mad), I also only have to take a car technical exam every 12 months - now the problem is down to insurance limitations and cost


maybe paying the extra for insurance would be worth it in the long run - we all pay somewhere and not being classed as an LKW has a lot of benefits for me - its just the expense that hurts!

I have checked over the prison box that was delivered - its not good, I think its going to get cut up and made into a chicken house I found a good company that will supply composite panels, pre-cut to my drawings (including windows and doors), they will rebate where the panels meet to ensure a prefect corner and insert reinforcement inside the panels to allow bulkheads/furniture to be fixed to - its not cheap hence my question about how much this kind of thing costs in Europe

[dollythelw]

it took almost 2 days of non-stop telephone calls but I have found much cheaper insurance

It looks like we will use the prison box to get the Iveco its "motorhome" registration - because the box has some problems it will give me the chance to learn more about repairing composite panels - Im very tempted to make a "pop top" out of it just to see if I can do it, I like the idea of having the box at the same height as the cab when Im driving (this would make the top of the box 280cms...)

Can someone tell me about the windows used by Ormocar/Action Mobil and Unicat - they look more like domestic UPVC/glass windows? Seitz S4 windows are easy to find here - would these be ok?

Thanks

Jez

[RandyHandy]

Hi Jez,

do you mean

http://www.kctechnik.de/

[dollythelw]

Thanks Henry! Yes, thats the company - after a little research I think they are very nice but sadly they are too expensive for me

Uwe - the insurance market here for Wohnmobiles is to small for the companies to be interested in, if a motorhome fits into a nice easy definition then its not so bad;
1) is it made by one of our list of manufacturers?
2) is it UK steering?
3) Is it under 5000cc's?
4) Is it under 7.3m?
if yes to all these then is easy to find insurance - with my case the answer is no to all the questions

I aim to get the prison box onto the load bed this weekend - I found the sizes of my single wheels last night, they are 12x20's with a snap ring, I remember someone saying the tyres that fit these wheels are limited

We cant discuss anything with an MOT engineer - in England MOT inspecters arent engineers, they are just local garages who buy testing equipment for cars, send an employee to a training course on how to use them and then start testing cars for the elements that are required for use on UK roads - there are no engineering qualifications required. A friend from Finland found it very confusing that a garage in the UK can test a car for safety, decide if it is ok or not and then charge the customer for any repairs that they want to, its not exactly independant or unbiased!


Effectively we have very few guidlines to restrict us but also very few places to find good solid information either.

[dollythelw]

Uwe, the wheels I have are 11x20s, sorry - I think I must have been having a bad day when I looked at them before!

Tyre choice is open at the moment so any advice is appreciated, ideally I want something that gives good highway grip, especially when the cold comes and acceptable offroad grip, heres the choice so far;

Dunlop SP P7
Pirelli PS22
Semperit Giant (100km/hr rating)
Michellin XL or XS or some used XZL's

What do you guys think, which choice and why ?

A Dutch tire dealer has a lot of stock and they are a lot cheaper than buying tires in England!

[TimberwolfII]

Hi there Jez, we had a brief email conversation a while back via the house of the flying hammers site. Good to see your progressing with the truck and finding a way through good ol blightys law nightmares! Have you thought of using a zepplin shelter? There are a couple of guys fitted them to the 110-17 successfully on here. They fit straight onto the iveco container system. I'm still looking into getting a 110-17 too and would go with a zepplin - robust, insulated and designed for the job + minimum of fuss. i want to use the truck when I get it, not spend years making a box! You just chop through the sides with a jig saw for the windows etc. Just a bit short hieght wise but then thats good for c of g!. There is a nice 110-17 for sale by a swiss couple on here at the mo its in the findings from the web bit. or http://www.toubab.ch/index.php?id=50 shows what a zepplin can be made into!

BTW where did you get insurance and whats it costing? I need to have a good handle on costs before taking the plunge!!

I don't know if there is a truck equivalent to the bridgestone dueller H/t, but they fit your criterior, for an 80% road tyre nothing short of amazing on my hilux, esp on snow/ice.

If you get into speedo recalibration issues speedy cables do it for the kit car guys, worth a try?

Rob

[dollythelw]

Hi Rob - good to hear from you!

Sureterm direct - £340 fully comp, glass cover, contents cover to £2k, 365 days European cover, no limit on trip duration, didnt give a monkeys about engine size, they did want an immobiliser on it though, it is limited to 5000miles although they will add more for extra pennies. For European breakdown recovery insurance go to Whittlesea, £80 per annum up to 20 tonnes and 40 feet - bargain!

Speedos - easy, no tacho needed for a motorhome so will use an Acewell electronic speedo, end-user calibration, very reliable and easy to use, I can either user an inductive pulse to drive it or they make an A to D encoder that will use the original speedo drive cable.

I was really impressed with Priors diesel of Great Yarmouth, their parts department were hugely apologetic for not having German Army spare parts on the shelf for a truck made 20 years ago but would express them in for me, £18 for fuel hose assembly, delivered

Options, options, its all about bang for buck as pennies are tight - build a custom box (I found a place in Yorkshire that can supply panels), or a Zepplin is an option; that one depends on freight costs and Im waiting to see what Frank of Bat Trade can ship for (trying to work out if its cheaper to drive over and haul it with an Ifor or have one shipped), use a reefer box, or the current experiement which is an ex-G4 prisoner body (5.3x2.1 metres so ideal size for the 110). The prison box is by far the cheapest option although Im trying to work out if it can be salvaged or if the beating it suffered from the guys I bought it from is going to make it a write off.

I can build race cars but Im blindly fumbling along here so Im reconciled to making a heap of mistakes until the right way becomes patently obvious

Im not sure if this thing can sneak under the 7.5 tonne limit but racing has given me an aversion to carrying more weight than necessary and every Kg means more litres/100km, regardless of the lard the wife and I will do the 40 tonne rigid licence just for the extra category and the piece of mind.





surprisingly heavy and doest bring much to the party in terms of rigidity




I will remove the subframe from the chassis, blast and respray the lot before final build, its not in bad condition though




The reduction of Kg's has so far gained about 4cms of height at the back of the chassis rails




The temptation to tidy up the yard by putting the prison box on the bed was too much, it was interesting to see how tall it was even though it "only" measures 3.6m, I REALLY like the idea of building a custom box with a pop top and having 80cms of "in transit" height reduction.

[TimberwolfII]

Thats a good price on insurance Jez, well done. And the recovery rate is unbelieveable!

I'm hoping that living near the HGV/LKW capital of the north (Carlisle) will pay dividends, parts wise, when we're truckkin

The Iveco's starting to look like a expedition truck! Chassis looks good. Several on here have gone for a three point linkage to allow for major chassis twist, but would need a subframe for the prison box? With the zepplin route you just need a member at the front to tie into the container locks and a pivot for it in the centre as the box is self supporting. Simple quick AND CHEAP! (I think I've seen the cross memebers that hold the conatiner locks on here for E250, prob even cheaper if you flame axe them off at a truck breaker) I can't see that there would be any handling effects - the chassis only 'sees' the movement if it flexes - lateral/cornering forces wouldn't make the box move relative to the chassis. The chassis may be relatively more flexible and that might effect what the driver feels? I could see the box effecting the handling if there where springs in the system as they are then an uncontroled system - just like suspension (dont need to go any further with that idea with you, racer man!! ) Like you say, its what is available and for what cost. Witham has the British army equivalent boxes, not sure at what price. (just looked - immaculate workshop with 3 phase lathe etc etc just .......£7500!! mmm maybe not that route then!) They did have a really funky box with pull out tented sides for a field kitchen, ended up massive but folded neatly away.

Has the prison box still got the cells in? could be useful for unruly kids on a long journey ........... or for the kludgey. Probably fairly air tight for stray smells

Something i reccommend is to not fit it out for a few trips, just camp in the empty box. We are house renovators/developers by profession and it is always useful to just get to know a place before you start ripping into it. By allowing your likestyle to happen in the building/truck you learn so much, like where the mud goes and where best to put the doors/loo etc. We did 3 months in NZ a few years ago in an ex hospital truck, converting it as we went. With that knowledge there are a few things i have as priorities for when we get our Iveco, might help you?:

1. flushing boat toilet 9head) with black water tank, not a thetford. With only four aboard the thetford stank on the third day, more so on rough going. Thetfords are fine for caravaners who live on sites with dump stations but would be my personal nightmare. Home brewed chemical additives too, commercial ones are a rip off! Home brewed wheely tank to deposit if you can't get near a drain.
2. Water in canisters, as rec by Tom Sheppard in the Vehicle Dependant Expedition Guide (very good book!) Canister in a rack, tap on the cap. Hot water from a kettle. We never got to use our plumbed in system and didn't miss it a jot. Canisters are low tech, easily transportable and easily to design in redundantcy (ie you can still function if something goes pop. Also good for freeze resistance in low temps. Really can't understand the gin palaces with hot and cold running everything. If your're camping, camp. If you want your mod cons, go to a hotel. But each to their own, everyone has a different tollerance level and mines pretty high - we've been living in an unconverted barn for 7 months whilst we do it up - 1 cold tap! Its grim up north....!
3. chest fridge. Doored ones spill all the hard-won cold air out every time you open them. (it was our major electricity drain and a constant ball-ache).
4. best fly screens available - you'll know all about that going into the boonies in russia!
5. roof ventilation, our camper truck got mega hot esp at night (!).
6. low tech but controlable heat (im looking at boat parafin heaters)
7. LOO and wet/mud space physically seperate from the living accom. ie at the entrance, in a little vestibule. The bog only gets used for 5% (?) of the day but takes alot of room if given a "bathroom". Something in a private but multifunctional space was alot better for us in NZ. (a spade is even better in the boonies!) The wet room really came into its own with surfing/mountainbikeing/bedraggled kids, (we have one in the house because of this) keeps the main area SO much cleaner. Also for this reason karndean or equivalent flooring in the living area, something hoseable in the entrance/toilet (checker plate?).
8. small quiet portable genny. (not attached/built in to the camper) Inverters are horribly inefficient and we really struggled with electric battery capacity. Just for lap top charging etc
9. BIG panel that contains a window by the sink/kitchen area that opens out (like unicats + all the greasy spoons have) - even when its pi$$ing down always nice to cook "out doors".

Sorry, very off original topic, but its nice to have a Brit to talk to!! Not to say this isn't the best site on this topic on the web, and all the folk are lovely to boot!!

cheers, Rob

[Uwe]

Hi Jez,

back to the wheels.

You mean 11x20 drop centre rims? Are you sure they don't collide with the brake Drums? Or do you mean 11-20 semi drop centre? I think these ones fit better. What's the tyre size you want to use? According to your list above, 14.00R20? To meet regulations you shold mount them on 10.00-20 wheels and fit bigger brake cylinders on the front axle. Using 11-20 rims, you can mount 365/80R20 MPT. I would take Michelin XZL or Conti MPT81 and leave Michelin XL or XS behind - they are too old and not very comfortable at high speeds.

Cheers
Uwe

[dollythelw]

Hi Uwe - its not a big drop so I think they will be the "semi", I bought them from Frank at BAT Trade a long time ago and these wheels were his recommendation based on the Iveco - I hope he hasnt made a mistake?!? I will make a "test fitting" to make sure the wheels fit over the brakes just to be sure



Im afraid the translation didnt work so its not so clear which tyres you dont like - please try again?

My budget doesnt allow for new tyres, the Dutch tyre dealer has unused old stock for sale, he has a choice of 365/80 size, the Semperit Giants are rated for constant 100km/hr @ £320 each (which is something I like) The Michellin XS are £230 each...

How (or where) could I find out the part numbers for the uprated front brake cylinders?


Hi Rob - yep, all advice is good fella, the Toubab site is very cool, its nice to see a DOKA out to play and inspirational given we couldn't face the prospect of piling kids into a small cab, I couldnt make out how they fixed thier Belgium box to thier chassis, it looks solidly mounted at the back but I couldnt see the pivot assembly for the front mount, one thing that concerned me slightly is that given the 3 point fixing the chassis is only loaded in 2 places (front and rear mount), I could see this being ok with an sub-chassis as the sub-chassis spreads the loading along the length of the main chassis. Although the Standard Iveco mounts are quite tall I do like the way it spreads the load - hmm maybe Im being overly cautious about the possibility of creating a stress riser in a chassis rail subjected to repeated torsional loading

I think the load locks are €250 each end, certainly cheaper than buying new but in the "first generation" of this camper Im hugely budget restricted so Im trying to explore the no-cost options first before having to take a deep breath and shopping for an "expensive" new box.
We've done plenty of rough camping, I used to spend weeks with a tarp and a sleeping bag but these days (especially with the sprats) we enjoy living in the woods comfortably, spades are ok but pull out the Tig and some aluminium tubing and knock up a folding racing loo complete with tent for the most luxurious woodland poop on the planet - chuck a Sauna tent in the kit list and life is most groovy, we even have a petrol powered centrally heated tent

Im intreagued why people dont use mechanical heat recovery for thier boxes? then you can keep the windows closed at night, have fresh air, no insects and use the heating systems less

[TimberwolfII]

Agreed on the toubab site and no, I'm not sure on the box fixing either, looks very low.

I like this thread: [url][http://www.allrad-lkw-gemeinschaft.de/p ... art=30/url] gives a good over view on the chassis fixing of a 3 point jobbie and shows a good example of the karzie in the porch i was wobbling on about. Its made with real metal too! can't remember if it's on that thread where he's got the spare tyre frame hung off the container attachment holes which is also a good ploy. Another reason i'd like to use a zepplin or equivalent.

At least the stress of a three point system is put into the chassis in a sort of linear way (hard to describe what I mean by that!) The torsional forces are removed by the pivot so there isn't any tear loads in the joints, just yucking and riving from the up and down motions of the truck and the side to side. "feels" ok from a finger in the wind engineer!

Would you say the doka has enough room to hang a pair of hammocks for the sprats? Its a theory we've had, kids are set on it and i'd like to know if its a possibilty!

heat recovery - mmmm. Domestic ones are about 4:1 efficient IIRC. maybe its the old battery capacity thing, a heat recovery system might just drain the batteries too much over night?

Central heated tent? coooool, or perhaps waaaarm. Esp in Russia! Mind you it was -20 here year before last!!

Rob

[Uwe]

Im afraid the translation didnt work so its not so clear which tyres you dont like - please try again?

You meam my English didn't work Wilmaaa, my wife, is much better in it

Michelin XS and XL are over 10 years old (Michelin stopped production of these last century ) so I would not use them for a longer journey. Semperit Gigant Steel are rather good on muddy ground, but loud on tarmac and slippery on wet roads. No recommendation. Take Michelin XZL or Continental MPT81. The Michelin is more durable, the Conti is cheaper.

The rims are semi drop centre, they should fit. I'll have a look for the number of the uprated brake cylinders - maybe linnifee or RandyHandy are quicker

Cheers
Uwe

[Uwe]

The IVECO number of the brake cylinder is 4208 6311

[TimberwolfII]

Summut else to the pot - the swiss guys used these:

As we meet unexpectedly straightforward advice. We get the OK for the standard 385/65R22.5 tires on 8 hole rims 11.75x22.5. At Bat Trade in Germany, I can order a conversion kit with spacers, lug nuts, tires and rims. We decide on a construction site profile and order the Michelin XZY3.


A 'construction site profile' should handle the rougher stuff?