New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

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Kalle12
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New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#1 Beitrag von Kalle12 » 2018-05-02 22:52:11

Hello!

Very glad to be part of the forum! After a lot of searching I bought an Iveco 90-16 in great condition. I was planning to do some service on it and was close to Poland, and thought I would take it there and let them change all oils. Yes I know, this was a HUGE mistake... I thought it better to get it changed soon rather than driving it thousands of kilometers and then doing it myself...

Anyways, I told the shop to put in SAE 80W90 GL4 into the gearbox. They said they had it and proceeded to change oil filter, diesel filter, air filter for the brake system, and engine oil, transmission oil, transfer case oil and axle oil (all other oils are fine).

I proceeded to drive off but thought my truck sounded weird after taking off in 2nd gear. When I engage the clutch from standstill in 2nd gear, a brief "shriek" is heard... Confused I drove back to the mechanic, but not before driving around for maybe 20-30 km..

The mechanic tests the truck and can hear the sound. He puts the parking brake in, goes under the truck and tells me to engage the clutch while listening for the sound. He says it comes from the gearbox 😱 After further inspection, the oil they put inside was Castrol Syntrax Universal 80W-90, API GL-4 / API GL-5.

We proceed to change the oil to SAE 80W90 GL4 which they had to go and buy... The sound however can still be reproduced. When starting in gear 2 and engaging the clutch there is a brief shriek when the truck starts moving. Sound is also there when doing the test with gear 3 from standstill and parking brake active and engaging the clutch. The sound comes after the clutch is almost fully engaged. There is no sound with gear 1 however.

Has my gearbox been destroyed from running the wrong oil for 20-30 km? Was the oil they put inside detrimental to my gearbox? If anyone could advise I would really appreciate it as I'm pretty devastated by this.

And please, don't remind me not to ever change oils at a shop. I thought putting the right liquid into a hole was something every man could do.... 😂🤦‍♂️


EDIT: Second problem has appeared after my trusty service. My engine doesn't want to idle after driving from Poland to Germany, about 260 km at 2700 rpm (~92 km/h on stock tires) for 2.5 hours. Should I assume they have installed the wrong diesel filter as well? Engine gets air, thank god they didn't touch my air filter. It seems like I should replace whatever they put on it. :wack:

This is the oil that went into the transmission the first time:
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Chris_G300DT
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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#2 Beitrag von Chris_G300DT » 2018-05-03 8:08:28

Hello Kalle,
the Problem is, that a GL5 Oil damages the synchronization rings from a synchronized Manual Gearbox.

In your case, i think the GL5 Oil disabled the function of the synchronizer rings, because it is to slippy. The damage of the material should only apply if the wrong oil had more time.

Maybe changing the oil for multiple times will recover the synchronizer rings.

Für alle:
Ihm wurde in der Werkstatt ein GL5 Öl in das synchronisierte Schaltgetriebe gekippt.
Jetzt funktioniert beim Schalten die Synchronisation nicht. Zumindest habe ich das seiner spärlichen Beschreibung so entnommen.
Das GL5 Öl war für ca 30 km im Getriebe.

Ich habe ihm vorgeschlagen das Öl mehrfach zu wechseln, in der Hoffnung die Synchronisierung damit wieder zu verbessern. Keine Ahnung ob das funktioniert

Viele Grüße
Chris

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#3 Beitrag von RandyHandy » 2018-05-03 8:44:37

Hi,
if the gearbox is an s5-35 - you can/must use the original oil "Ecofluid M" from ZF.
The 80W90 is much to thick

Good luck!
Viele Grüße

Henry



Lieber 2 Laster mehr als 1 Laster zuviel!

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#4 Beitrag von Kalle12 » 2018-05-03 9:29:24

RandyHandy hat geschrieben:
2018-05-03 8:44:37
Hi,
if the gearbox is an s5-35 - you can/must use the original oil "Ecofluid M" from ZF.
The 80W90 is much to thick

Good luck!
Thank you! Where can I find out if my gearbox is an s5-35? I will check immediately. Is the Ecofluid M widely available? I'm taking a ferry today but could do the change when I have arrived at the docks.

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#5 Beitrag von Kalle12 » 2018-05-03 10:09:54

Chris_G300DT hat geschrieben:
2018-05-03 8:08:28
Hello Kalle,
the Problem is, that a GL5 Oil damages the synchronization rings from a synchronized Manual Gearbox.

In your case, i think the GL5 Oil disabled the function of the synchronizer rings, because it is to slippy. The damage of the material should only apply if the wrong oil had more time.

Maybe changing the oil for multiple times will recover the synchronizer rings.

Für alle:
Ihm wurde in der Werkstatt ein GL5 Öl in das synchronisierte Schaltgetriebe gekippt.
Jetzt funktioniert beim Schalten die Synchronisation nicht. Zumindest habe ich das seiner spärlichen Beschreibung so entnommen.
Das GL5 Öl war für ca 30 km im Getriebe.

Ich habe ihm vorgeschlagen das Öl mehrfach zu wechseln, in der Hoffnung die Synchronisierung damit wieder zu verbessern. Keine Ahnung ob das funktioniert

Viele Grüße
Chris
Thank you for your answer. Just to be clear, the gearbox switches gears without a problem, it is very smooth. There is simply a howling/droning noise when taking off in 2nd gear and engaging the clutch. If the synchronizer rings are damaged, should there be difficulty switching gears or other noticable malfunctions besides a noise?

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#6 Beitrag von Uwe » 2018-05-03 12:05:10

Hi Kalle,

the Castrol Syntrans is an oil which matches both GL4 and GL5, so ist shouldn't damage the gearbox.

ZF Ecofluid is also GL4 and GL5, apart from the lower viscosity it is quite similar to the Castrol.

In my opinion, 80W90 GL4 is 'good' enough for the gearbox of the IVECO :bored:

For my understanding: the 'shriek' when shifting into 2nd is not the well known scratching? Maybe the clutch is faulty or the grease on the clutch toothing is gone?

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Uwe
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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#7 Beitrag von Chris_G300DT » 2018-05-03 12:43:56

Hi Kalle,
after Uwes Post, i've read the product sheet for the Castrol 80W90 Syntrax.
This oil is not a classical hypoid oil mostly called "GL5". Personally i would not use it in a manual gearbox, but in fact it should not cause a damage and can be used if the viscosity matches.

Gruß
Chris

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#8 Beitrag von Kalle12 » 2018-05-03 15:23:06

Uwe hat geschrieben:
2018-05-03 12:05:10
Hi Kalle,

the Castrol Syntrans is an oil which matches both GL4 and GL5, so ist shouldn't damage the gearbox.

ZF Ecofluid is also GL4 and GL5, apart from the lower viscosity it is quite similar to the Castrol.

In my opinion, 80W90 GL4 is 'good' enough for the gearbox of the IVECO :bored:

For my understanding: the 'shriek' when shifting into 2nd is not the well known scratching? Maybe the clutch is faulty or the grease on the clutch toothing is gone?

Hälsningar
Uwe

Hi Uwe! Thanks for your answer. After checking the passenger door I found an instruction manual from the fire department specifying 80W90 for the transmission, so perhaps there is nothing wrong with the gearbox after all. Now it also has 80W90 GL4 inside.

What is the famous scratching? To be clear, it isn't when I shift into 2nd that the noise is heard, only when starting from standstill with second gear and engaging the clutch (lifting the foot from the clutch) and the sound is only for half a second.

For the clutch toothing, can it be greased again without removing the gearbox? It is just strange that the oil change of the gearbox resulted in the sound.

PS I'm also swedish and on the way with the boat to Sweden with the truck onboard now :)

Hälsningar,
Kalle

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#9 Beitrag von Kalle12 » 2018-05-03 15:25:15

Chris_G300DT hat geschrieben:
2018-05-03 12:43:56
Hi Kalle,
after Uwes Post, i've read the product sheet for the Castrol 80W90 Syntrax.
This oil is not a classical hypoid oil mostly called "GL5". Personally i would not use it in a manual gearbox, but in fact it should not cause a damage and can be used if the viscosity matches.

Gruß
Chris
That's very good news. I think what I should do is make a video with the sound present, and post it here. Perhaps someone has heard it or it's common to all Iveco 90-16. Speaking of, do people normally start driving with 1st or 2nd gear on this truck?

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#10 Beitrag von meggmann » 2018-05-03 15:38:12

I'm also a 90-16 owner. This sound is not a "regular" sound and it's not very common to have such a sound.
Maybe you should check the transfer gear-box that either the road or the offroad gear is fixed (and not the intermediate) - it's switched with the lever nearby the driver seat. Hope you know the changing procedure - it's not just switching the lever.
I normaly start in the first gear - because it protects the clutch for excessive use.

The recommended oil for the main gear-box and the transfer gear-box is a SAE 80W/90 GL3 without EP skill with additional wearing protection.

Regards, Marcel
- Punkt 1 erreicht, THW Iveco 90-16 ist zu Hause (07.11.2014)
- Punkt 2 erreicht, LAK 2 ist zu Hause (7.12.2014)
- Punkt 3 erreicht, geänderte Fahrzeugart begutachtet (19.01.2015)
- Punkt 4 erreicht, Eisenschwein ist zugelassen (17.03.2015)
- Punkt 5 erreicht, Umbauten am "Trägerfahrzeug" beendet (12.04.2015)
- Punkt 6 erreicht, H Gutachten erteilt (15.12.2015)

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#11 Beitrag von Kalle12 » 2018-05-03 15:59:57

meggmann hat geschrieben:
2018-05-03 15:38:12
I'm also a 90-16 owner. This sound is not a "regular" sound and it's not very common to have such a sound.
Maybe you should check the transfer gear-box that either the road or the offroad gear is fixed (and not the intermediate) - it's switched with the lever nearby the driver seat. Hope you know the changing procedure - it's not just switching the lever.
I normaly start in the first gear - because it protects the clutch for excessive use.

The recommended oil for the main gear-box and the transfer gear-box is a SAE 80W/90 GL3 without EP skill with additional wearing protection.

Regards, Marcel
Thanks for the input Marcel. Do you use GL3 or GL4 oil in your transmission? GL3 is almost impossible to come by and GL4 should be more or less equal..

Regarding not normal sounds, I also have a pulsating droning sound that starts at 70 km/h. When I hit the accelerator the sound intensifies, when going down a slope it goes away. Perhaps it is the clutch that is bad or some part of it? Or it could be an accessory such as the alternator, not sure. I have only driven this truck at higher speeds so I don't know what they should sound like. It is definitely not the engine however as the sound is only there when in gear. It was like this since I bought it but mechanically it is all good (shifting, gearbox, feeling). Only these weird sounds keep bugging me... :eek:

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#12 Beitrag von meggmann » 2018-05-03 16:07:52

I use a GL4 - but would never use a 4/5 or 5....

Some time ago I had a dsturbing sound (ringing) in some different situations - after a lot of search I faced a problem witch the adaptioner bevor the muffler (there are two of them). They have too much space and they make this sound. I will replace them with an interlock flexible tube.

Regards, Marcel
- Punkt 1 erreicht, THW Iveco 90-16 ist zu Hause (07.11.2014)
- Punkt 2 erreicht, LAK 2 ist zu Hause (7.12.2014)
- Punkt 3 erreicht, geänderte Fahrzeugart begutachtet (19.01.2015)
- Punkt 4 erreicht, Eisenschwein ist zugelassen (17.03.2015)
- Punkt 5 erreicht, Umbauten am "Trägerfahrzeug" beendet (12.04.2015)
- Punkt 6 erreicht, H Gutachten erteilt (15.12.2015)

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#13 Beitrag von Groschengrab » 2018-05-03 16:57:29

Hi all,

to me it sounds like a slipping clutch shortly before closing and transfering, since he mentioned that it appears when accelerating from stand still.

To verify if the clutch creates the noise change into a higher gear and try again...

Regards,
Alex
Es ist niemals zu spät und selten zu früh.

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#14 Beitrag von Kalle12 » 2018-05-03 22:15:44

meggmann hat geschrieben:
2018-05-03 15:38:12
I'm also a 90-16 owner. This sound is not a "regular" sound and it's not very common to have such a sound.
Maybe you should check the transfer gear-box that either the road or the offroad gear is fixed (and not the intermediate) - it's switched with the lever nearby the driver seat. Hope you know the changing procedure - it's not just switching the lever.
I normaly start in the first gear - because it protects the clutch for excessive use.

The recommended oil for the main gear-box and the transfer gear-box is a SAE 80W/90 GL3 without EP skill with additional wearing protection.

Regards, Marcel
Could someone please tell me the switching procedure for the lever between off-road and onroad? I feel like I am making a big mess of things since I moved it. How is it used correctly?

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#15 Beitrag von meggmann » 2018-05-03 23:01:47

First street to off-road.
Drive very slow in the first gear, move lever to off-road and hold it there (not only switching, push it to the limit an hold it there). Then push the Gaspedal an than release the lever. It should have moved to off-road (maximum speed is decreased). During all the procedure don’t push the clutch.

Off-road to street.
Drive slow in first gear, than push the clutch, move lever to street position an hold it there. After this release clutch still holding lever und now it should have been changed to street again. Release lever.

Sounds strange but it hast to be done in this way. It’s especially necessary to hold / push the lever to the different ends because otherwise it will not be changed.

Regards, Marcel
- Punkt 1 erreicht, THW Iveco 90-16 ist zu Hause (07.11.2014)
- Punkt 2 erreicht, LAK 2 ist zu Hause (7.12.2014)
- Punkt 3 erreicht, geänderte Fahrzeugart begutachtet (19.01.2015)
- Punkt 4 erreicht, Eisenschwein ist zugelassen (17.03.2015)
- Punkt 5 erreicht, Umbauten am "Trägerfahrzeug" beendet (12.04.2015)
- Punkt 6 erreicht, H Gutachten erteilt (15.12.2015)

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#16 Beitrag von Kalle12 » 2018-05-04 0:05:01

meggmann hat geschrieben:
2018-05-03 23:01:47
First street to off-road.
Drive very slow in the first gear, move lever to off-road and hold it there (not only switching, push it to the limit an hold it there). Then push the Gaspedal an than release the lever. It should have moved to off-road (maximum speed is decreased). During all the procedure don’t push the clutch.

Off-road to street.
Drive slow in first gear, than push the clutch, move lever to street position an hold it there. After this release clutch still holding lever und now it should have been changed to street again. Release lever.

Sounds strange but it hast to be done in this way. It’s especially necessary to hold / push the lever to the different ends because otherwise it will not be changed.

Regards, Marcel
Thanks so much for the response! This information is great because I haven't been able to find it anywhere on the internet..

I tried it as you suggested. When I went from street to off-road, I held the lever to the left, while driving/crawling slowly in first gear. After I pushed the gas pedal I could hear gears teeth rubbing against each other but it didn't engage. So I hit the clutch to not do damage, and when I released it I was in off-road gear. Switching back to street as you suggested worked flawlessly.

I wonder if perhaps I need to step on the clutch after switching to off-road, instead of the gas pedal?

The sound of grinding gears was scary ha.. How much abuse can these gear boxes take?

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#17 Beitrag von meggmann » 2018-05-04 5:16:32

You should change bevor you need it. The car should only be free-rolling at a very low speed in first gear so that there is no force to move the truck. The case with the gas pedal is only to push and release, more or less a “gas shot”. If you do it in this way there’s no scratching sound of the teeth.
There is a need for the gas shot because if you want to change to off-road the motor has to turn more often relatively tho the rest of the transmission.
- Punkt 1 erreicht, THW Iveco 90-16 ist zu Hause (07.11.2014)
- Punkt 2 erreicht, LAK 2 ist zu Hause (7.12.2014)
- Punkt 3 erreicht, geänderte Fahrzeugart begutachtet (19.01.2015)
- Punkt 4 erreicht, Eisenschwein ist zugelassen (17.03.2015)
- Punkt 5 erreicht, Umbauten am "Trägerfahrzeug" beendet (12.04.2015)
- Punkt 6 erreicht, H Gutachten erteilt (15.12.2015)

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#18 Beitrag von Kalle12 » 2018-05-04 14:07:21

Ok, I will give this a try later and a good off-road worthy place. Does the center and rear differential lock require similar actions? Or should the car be stopped before those are engaged?

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#19 Beitrag von meggmann » 2018-05-04 14:18:47

For the locks the car should be stopped or driven very slow without high torque in a straigt way. sometimes they will not switch. Than you should move forward and backwards a little bit und change a little bit the steering direction.
- Punkt 1 erreicht, THW Iveco 90-16 ist zu Hause (07.11.2014)
- Punkt 2 erreicht, LAK 2 ist zu Hause (7.12.2014)
- Punkt 3 erreicht, geänderte Fahrzeugart begutachtet (19.01.2015)
- Punkt 4 erreicht, Eisenschwein ist zugelassen (17.03.2015)
- Punkt 5 erreicht, Umbauten am "Trägerfahrzeug" beendet (12.04.2015)
- Punkt 6 erreicht, H Gutachten erteilt (15.12.2015)

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#20 Beitrag von Kalle12 » 2018-05-04 23:04:18

meggmann hat geschrieben:
2018-05-04 14:18:47
For the locks the car should be stopped or driven very slow without high torque in a straigt way. sometimes they will not switch. Than you should move forward and backwards a little bit und change a little bit the steering direction.
I successfully engaged the diffs by stopping, pulling the lever and driving off again. Took the truck on some serious off-roading today down to a lake through tight, dense forest roads and thick bush. It performed flawlessly like it was nothing. I didn't appreciate this machine for what it is until I took it off road and it's amazing!

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#21 Beitrag von Kalle12 » 2018-05-28 21:03:03

I finally got around to ordering proper Tutela ZC90 GL3 oil for the transmission. I just emptied out the "old" oil, and found some strange pieces in there. They are brown on one side and black / shiny on the other.

There was almost nothing attached to the magnetic part of the plug which is good. A small amount of powder was in the bottom of the oil catcher, seems like it could be metal shavings.

Does anyone know what these pieces could be? Part of the transmission or perhaps a seal ring for the oil drain plug? I didn't see any ring on the oil drain plug after taking it off.

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#22 Beitrag von micha der kontrabass » 2019-05-03 10:10:32

link auf Wunsch Kalles gelöscht (Integritätswarung)

Da scheint einer aufzugeben...

Gruss
Micha d.k.
Zuletzt geändert von micha der kontrabass am 2019-05-03 18:16:25, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
mit dem am nördlichsten stationierten Magirus Mercur!

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Re: New Iveco 90-16 owner, possible transmission problems

#23 Beitrag von Kalle12 » 2019-05-03 11:56:52

Sorry mine isn't for sale, but I can help you find one?

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