New M D 232 D17 owner in USA with many questions

[wilco]

have a 1978 MD 232 D 17 FA 4x4 X Swiss fire truck.

490.0061.090

I am in need of a Repair manual and front spring eye bushings any suggestions

Also the truck is geared for low speed 80KPH.

How can the road speed be increased?

It has a F8L413F and the governor is set to 2300 RPM

truck already has 12.00-20 tires so I probably need to change the gearing.

Is that usually done by by changing the ring and pinions or the planetary gears in the hubs?

Thanks for the help!

[felix]

Hello wilco,

1. I will send you documentation for the 170d11/12. It will cover most of your truck as well.
2. Front spring eye bushings sounds bad. What is exactly your problem? Normally Deutz used needle roller bearings inside the brackets (These can only be replaced and not be repaired) and a bolt fixed in the eye of the spring leaf (It does not move inside the eye therefore it should not wear out). Pictures available?
3. Speed:
You don't change gaers in you planetary gerbox inside your wheel hub, it's not possible nor are parts available. The wheel hubs always have the same reduction for one class of axles. The overall reduction of the axle is always set by the cone gears inside the differential gearbox.
You can replace the axles by faster ones, but you have the most heavy axles available. And heavy means slow, especially on off-road trucks. Therefore fast 4x4-Axles are rare, very rare. Most promising would be looking for rear axles from fast 4x2 trucks and putting the fast differential from a rear axle into your front axle. Ist is easy to change a differential gearbox on a deutz axle, it comes with its own frame. You just have to consider the turning orientation. Mandantory, your truck will not move if front and rear axle have different turning orientations so one will push forward and one will pull backwards. You can change the orientation by mounting the differential gearbox upside down but than you have to turn one gasket to open on oil source and close one oil drain of the cardan shaft bearing. This is doable, but still a lot of work.

First: The F6l413F is build for 2700rpm. Strange why it is set to 2300. The 232d17 is rather rare so I don't know if this setting is common. It sounds strange to me.

When the engine runs 2700rpm and you still think the truck is to slow (Swizerland has mountains, they like low gear reduction), you should look for a gearbox with an overdrive. Feature: You just need one thingy instet of two axles. I am afraid that your truck has an S6-65 which is more rare in overdrive configuration. But maybe a S6-70 would also fit, these are more common with a reduction faster than 1:1 in the 6th gear (0,69/0,82/0,71), mostly from old MAN-trucks.

In genreal your axles can easyly take even 16.00R20 tyres. This would speed up the truck a lot and will also look quite massiv. But i am afraid that you have trilex hubs so you can't just mount a bigger rim with a bigger tyre. So it could be interesting fo find even a low reduced set auf deutz axles just to get standart hubs without the trilex stuff to be able to mount standart rims with bigger tyres. If that set of axles is even more slow or worn out, it is easy to swap the differential gearboxes from your axles into the new set. Or even just swap the outer parts of the axle (there is a 16-bolt flange, this thing implements a SAE-standart and should fit a wide range of deutz axle parts.

But first the engine speed and the bushing.

Aircooled regards,
Felix

[landwerk]

Moin,

the cheapest way to increase speed may be to change the tyres to 14.00 R 20 wich are much bigger an not that expensive .
After changing the Truck will be even look better !
The axles are strong enough for this size of tyre.

The F8l 413 is operated wit more rpm in other Trucks ( for ex .MAN KAT / 2650 rpm )
So the engine speed may also be increased easiely by adjusting the injektion pump .

That were the first things i would to to increase Road speed.
I would not cahnge anything at the planetary gears or axles.


I did not calculate , but i guess this will be ennough for about 100 Km/h


LG
Oli

[felix]

@Oli: 232D17 aus der Schweitz - der wird Trilex-Radnaben haben. Das schränkt die Räderauswahl gewaltig ein...

[wilco]

Thanks for all of the info!!

Although I have a lot of experience with old and odd equipment, Magirus Deutz are almost unheard of in the

USA.

The truck manual lists the 232 engine as a 8L413, but this truck has a F8L413F ( more cm3 and hp)

so it may be a replacement, but the truck only has 33,000 km's on it.

I can go to Surplus Military 14.00-20 tires but I will have to do some fender well modifying.

the 12.00-20's are 44" tall and the 14.00-20's are 49"

My goal is to get a 55 MPH cruise speed so it can be legally driven on US Interstates.

I have a engine manual coming to turn up the RPM. Is there a Recommended MAXIMUM CONTINUES

rpm that most 413 deutz users recommend?

Thanks again for the info and suggestions.

[felix]

Hello

Recommended MAXIMUM CONTINUES

Yes, it's 2650/2700rpm. Its the speed the engine is designed for in truck application.

But when you mention it: The F8L413F is not the 232hp engine (that would be the F8l413V), its the 256hp engine. Maybe this engine really is a replacement and someone reduced ist rpm to reduce its power to 232 hp. (Wich makes no technical sense at all, because the torque is harmfull, not the power). But this could maybe explain the reduction.

In this case: Maybe your truck has the small two-axle distribution gerbox. This thing can get hot if you use the full power of the big engine. Keep an eye on its temperature if you raise the rpm.

Do you have any paperwork on the truck to find out, if it is the original engine or not? The engine label is on the top rear of the engine, you have to remove the cabin floor cover.

MlG,
Felix

[wilco]

Its a tilt cab, so you just pump it up with the built in jack.

Engine is a F8L413F
5762247
12675 CM3
235hp 173 kw at 2300 rpm

[wilco]

tilter

[Allradwilli]

Hello,
at an engine speed increase of 2300 1/min to 2650 1/min (F8L 413)
the intake air by the engine (+ 107 m³/h) and the cooling air quantity must be taken (+ 1000 m³/h)!

[felix]

Hello Willi,

where is the point? Increasing the engine rpm increases the fan speed and therefore the cooling air voulme. Theoretically a bigger air filter could possible be required, but I don't think so.

MlG,
Felix

@wilco: You have tilex-rims on trilex hubs, you can't mount 14.00 unless you find trilex 10-20 rims, which don't exists as far as I know. And by the way: I suspected your truck is a tilter, but isn't it more easy to just open the three fast-opening screws of the floor cover, than tilting the whole cabin? You also easy unmout the wohle codrivers seat and open the right side cabin floor. Working on the engine while beeing inside the cabin provides shelter from wind and rain, somtimes a big feature. But it's maybe also fun to test all the gizmos on a new truck like a tilting cabin.

[Allradwilli]

Hello Willi,

where is the point? Increasing the engine rpm increases the fan speed and therefore the cooling air voulme. Theoretically a bigger air filter could possible be required, but I don't think so.

MlG,
Felix

Hello Felix,
I see but I quite different!
A correspondence with Deutz here could give more security for the engine speed increase!

[felix]

Hello Willy,

what could possibly go wrong? Missing air voulume would result in black smoke and/or rising engine temperture. What else could happen? Im confident Wilco has eyes to observe both, the exaust smoke and the temperatur gauge. Also that he's smart enaugh to slowly rise the load and not to force the engine to it's limits in the first place.

Despite all, there is one point we both agree: Only Deutz can give a total reliable answer to this questions. I am afraid that they don't give any answer at all regarding major changes on old eqipment, but worth a try anyway.

MlG,
Felix

[wilco]

Have tried to contact with DEUTZ about this engine, but they wont even respond...

There are many listings for this engine at 2500 or 2650, so that is where I will try for.

The cooling system will automatically increase the cooling air flow with motor rpm and exhaust temp..

If I get to low of a air pressure in the intake system adding another air filter is not a problem.

Now I have to fing some injection pump info on how to up the RPM...

[wilco]

I have seen 14.00-20 tires put on M34 Deuce and 1/2 rims and they originally had 9.00-20 tires...

[felix]

I have seen 14.00-20 tires put on M34 Deuce and 1/2 rims and they originally had 9.00-20 tires...

Year, and did it look well?

Michelin officially lists 10-20 ... 9-20 Rims for 14.00R20. 8-20 will work somehow but it starts looking ill. In Europe this combination will also be illegal but I don't know much about your law over there. Even smaller rims would be something for extreme offroad but nothing for the highway. You can loose a tyre while driving a corner at high speed, not so much fun.

Now I have to fing some injection pump info on how to up the RPM...

The principle is quite simple, it's still the same idea that made James Watt famous: Two rotating masses pushing two springs. On the side of your governor there is a cover approx. 40mm in diameter. If you unscrew this cover you will find a mass loaded by a spring. If you screw this more tight you get a bigger spring load and therefore more rpm. If you are lucky you can get it to 2600rpm that's it.

So open this cover, lift one frontwheel, put it in the highest gear and use the front wheel to turn the engine. Turn it until the first mass/spring faces toward the opening, screw it two turns tighter, turn the engine further until the second spring/mass faces toward the opening, give it also two turns and testrun to find out where you are. Write down how much turns on the springs you did so you can undo it in case.

You will have to set the stationary rpm afterwards which is done by the idle position of the throttle rod. Normally by a cable going up to your dashboard. But maybe you have to readjust the length of the whole throttle rod as well, i don't know.

Don't unmount the injection pump in any case except you really know what you are doing! Because if you unmount it, you have to readjust the injection timing.

isbn-3-7782-2057-8 would give detailed information and good drawing on you diesel injection system. But I am unsure if there is an English translation available.

Good luck,
Felix

[wilco]

The 14.00 swap is Very popular on Deuce and 1/2's in the states. If you keep the load well below the tire rating there have been no problems reported.


I moved the throttle stop screw in a few turns in and now I have 2500 RPM, so will give it one more turn to 2600 ...

Saw the spring adjustment window, but wanted to use the throttle stop screw first.

Dont want to remove th pump either! Altho I have retimed many engines

[tatti+hanni]

May be you have taked about it.
In one of my sold trucks the speed was reduced in the power divider not in the gear box. The problem is, that GETRAG does not manufact truck gearboxes/power divider anymore, and GETRAG will not helb.

Don`t worry, one of my customer have an BF8L413F engine wich turnes 3.000 rpm with out problems. Turn the RPM to 2650 and Your truck will run faster and Your engine do its work well. Deutz build good engines.

[wilco]

Has a zf 65 transfer case.

[wilco]

Black Smoke? This truck Dose NOT smoke under heavy load.
Is this common on the deutz engine or is this another sighn that the engine has been turned DOWN?

[MUSKOLUS]

Black Smoke? This truck Dose NOT smoke under heavy load.
Is this common on the deutz engine or is this another sighn that the engine has been turned DOWN?

Hi Wilco,
Yes it should smoke a bit under heavy load. I can imagine you dont miss the power until you actually pull a heavy load with the truck. According to the papers, the Z65 can handle a maximum input torque of 650N. This transfer box is rather weak for your engine which is rated at 1080N (1650 RPM). Not sure if this was factory fitted...

I have attached a picture of the spring eye bushings I have got here. Are you looking for these ones?

Regards, Andreas

[Adriano]

Hi Wilco,

if you give me your postal adress I can send you a data CD with a lot of very useful information on your truck and especially the FL413 motor (for example instruction manual, spare parts lists, etc.). Some in both german and english.

Best wishes,

Thomas

[wilco]

Thanks!

Will Crook
Wilco automotive
9882 East US 136
New Ross , IN
47978